tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post114418255463540877..comments2023-03-27T00:36:10.133-05:00Comments on Crushed Leviathan: Atheist's MassPecheurhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03522047175277715854noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144878098592541922006-04-12T16:41:00.000-05:002006-04-12T16:41:00.000-05:00This may not mean anything but I would like to wei...This may not mean anything but I would like to weigh in with my thoughts. I think it is a way to illustrate that works without faith is dead, being alone. This would cause a quandry to most church-goers because they feel the highest aspect of Christian living is attending church, mass if catholic. The author, it appears, is illustrating that one can do so with no faith at all. Typical Christians would probably find this offensive but to those of us who understand grace we find it just as amusing as probably did the author. Quite interesting. I really enjoyed the thought.Theophileoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03457424788151211922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144740849610180582006-04-11T02:34:00.000-05:002006-04-11T02:34:00.000-05:00To all,This has been a very exciting post. We have...To all,<BR/><BR/>This has been a very exciting post. We have had many people weighing in on the topic. We have had Catholics and non-Catholics helping me understand the strange world of literature (I would have liked to had some atheists give their two cents. But I guess it is like that time I asked a Jewish man, "So, as a Jew what do you think about Jesus?" His response, "As a Jew, not too much." So, I guess the atheists out there don't think too much about the mass (teehee) ).<BR/><BR/>Thanks to you and maybe we can discuss literature again sometime.Pecheurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03522047175277715854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144740596801100282006-04-11T02:29:00.000-05:002006-04-11T02:29:00.000-05:00Matt,Good to see you around.I did not know that ab...Matt,<BR/><BR/>Good to see you around.<BR/><BR/>I did not know that about Hoc est corpus.<BR/><BR/>Wishing you well with the move and specially GraduationPecheurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03522047175277715854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144408897203645792006-04-07T06:21:00.000-05:002006-04-07T06:21:00.000-05:00Kc,I think there are more questions raised than ca...Kc,<BR/><BR/>I think there are more questions raised than can be answered.<BR/><BR/>But that's what makes it fun.Pecheurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03522047175277715854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144329807430848822006-04-06T08:23:00.000-05:002006-04-06T08:23:00.000-05:00Oh and "Hi mom" (hehe).Oh and "Hi mom" (hehe).Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144329745065194972006-04-06T08:22:00.000-05:002006-04-06T08:22:00.000-05:00Again I don't see where faith is illustrated and u...Again I don't see where faith is illustrated and unless there were any verasity to his confession I would have to say he never had faith but still I think I'm missing the point somehow.Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144321789837297492006-04-06T06:09:00.000-05:002006-04-06T06:09:00.000-05:00KC,Ah ha...herein lies the entire arguement. Did D...KC,<BR/><BR/>Ah ha...herein lies the entire arguement. Did Dr. Desplein have faith or not. Of course, he paid for the mass, a good work, but did he do the good work "through faith"?<BR/><BR/>This could be another post, but what does "faith without works" mean?<BR/><BR/>Now, no one knows for sure if Desplein exercised faith or not. But if this story were not about a catholic mass, could we ask the same question?<BR/><BR/>In other words, what if this were about a "protestant" (and I know we could talk about that for days and we might but...)? How would the story be different in order to get across the same message? For example, a protestant may entitle the work (to the degradation of the work itself) "A Saved Atheist," or even an Evangelical may say, "A Born-Again Atheist." But even those terms do not capture the same spirit as an "Atheist's Mass." Mainly, because to a protestant or an evangelical (sometimes one in the same depending on the geographical location of the person) that proposed title assumes the person came to faith. For example, he was once an atheist now he is "saved."<BR/><BR/>But with the origin title, one never knows whether Desplein had faith. In other words, can you be an atheist and a "Christian" at the same time? Desplein thought the mass was a farce but out of respect paid for the mass and attended it. Why? And for what good?<BR/><BR/>OK, so since we have changed the title for the protestants, how might the story change in order to get to the same question?<BR/><BR/>Here is my short proposal (again my apologies to Honore de Balzac). There is a bright surgeon who is the assistant to a famous surgeon in town (we are going to have to change the setting some also). The famous surgeon is an atheist. But one day his underling finds him going to First Baptist Anywhere. He is confused and when he gest a chance, he confronts him about it. The "atheist" doctor tells him how poor he was growing up, but he met a man who fully trusted in the providence of God. He went to church every Sunday morning, night, and Wednesaday night. He was a good man. <BR/><BR/>Near the last days of this man, the doctor asked him, "If I could do anything for you, what would it be?"<BR/><BR/>The response from the man, "Secure your own destiny, trust Christ."<BR/><BR/>So from then on, this man attended church every Christmas and Easter. He walked the aisle, prayed a prayer, and confessed publically that Jesus is Lord, and then got baptised. His co worker saw him going to church on Easter and found this to be a contradiction of his atheistic views. He asked him what he thought about church in general, and the man said that he found the people in the church to be hypocrites and the whole thing was a one man "preacher" show on Sunday mornings. But later on, this co worker followed his boss to church on Christmas, and then asked him to exaplain how he was an atheist but attended church on Christmas and Easter. The man then recounts the events.<BR/><BR/>Did he have faith?Pecheurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03522047175277715854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144319894167289212006-04-06T05:38:00.000-05:002006-04-06T05:38:00.000-05:00Yeah, but it proves my point. I had no idea what w...Yeah, but it proves my point. I had no idea what was going on, so it was better to have a "different" interpretation than no interpretation at all.<BR/><BR/>However, if it had not been for you reading the Mayor of Castleburry and Deerslayer, I would have never known what the author was saying. =)Pecheurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03522047175277715854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144319787459919922006-04-06T05:36:00.000-05:002006-04-06T05:36:00.000-05:00yes, two reports. after the second report,"pecheur...yes, two reports. after the second report,"pecheur" got into so much trouble that he never asked me help anymore.<BR/><BR/>momAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144250799801006912006-04-05T10:26:00.000-05:002006-04-05T10:26:00.000-05:00Hmmm... I didn't see faith illustrated at all by ...Hmmm... I didn't see faith illustrated at all by Desplein which led me to the works based salvation perception. Even without faith he did "good" works because of Bourgeat. I still think I'm too dense grasp the author's intent. ;-)Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144186605702434542006-04-04T16:36:00.000-05:002006-04-04T16:36:00.000-05:00So, if we were to look at the story as a true fait...So, if we were to look at the story as a true faith experience of the doctor, one can see that if the doctor did believe he only believed because of the "actions" of Bourgeat. He came to faith because he saw it in Bourgeat.Pecheurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03522047175277715854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144186422194941112006-04-04T16:33:00.000-05:002006-04-04T16:33:00.000-05:00Outside the catholique issue of the meaning of the...Outside the catholique issue of the meaning of the mass, one may find comfort from the story.<BR/><BR/>But here is an interesting question,"Can the faith of a non believer be transferred to the account of the believer, as was the case here?" Now, I am looking at this from catholic perspective believing that faith is faith.<BR/><BR/>Did the "believer's faith" transfer to the atheists? Or did the atheist's acts of "faith" transfer to the believer. See Romans 1:17<BR/><BR/>"For in it is revealed God's righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, "But the righteous shall live by faith." "Pecheurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03522047175277715854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8236461.post-1144184057552787692006-04-04T15:54:00.000-05:002006-04-04T15:54:00.000-05:00Honestly it seems to me to be a comfort to those w...Honestly it seems to me to be a comfort to those who trust in a works based salvation but are certain they've missed the mark but then I'm pretty shallow.Kchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451413357867941720noreply@blogger.com